Dear Mr. Collins,


The following is the meaning behind the vision of Daniel 8 as it was revealed to me. I’d like to know what you think.

This is an excerpt from a peice I’m writing about the entire Book of Daniel. If you found this intriguiging and would like to read my complete work, I will be happy to send it to you.


Sincere in Christ,


The vision of chapter 8 is attributed to the time of the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great and Antiochus Epiphanies. While I do not disagree with this interpretation, being fully aware that history does often repeat itself, I must not argue with the angel in verse 17 who tells Daniel of the vision that:


“…in the time of the end, the vision shall be fulfilled.” Not revealed; fulfilled. What good would the revelation of a prophecy that pertained to Alexander do me? This prophecy is about the end of the Greco-Roman Empire, … and it hasn’t yet ended. This is why the fourth beast represents both the ancient and modern Roman empires.


But wait! In verse 20, doesn’t the angel clearly identify the ram as the Medes and Persians?


Again, if the vision in this chapter does pertain to our time, let’s take a closer look.


v. 3 “… a ram stood before the water, having two high horns, and one higher than the other and growing…”


I believe this ram represents Adolf Hitler, and Germany and Italy, the old Nazi allies, are the two horns. The one horn is “higher” because, geographically, Germany is north of Italy. Germany was also higher in power and authority. “And growing” refers to the fact that it was Germany who was taking over Europe, not its ally, Italy. This is not difficult to believe when we read verse 4, where the ram subdues all his neighbors in the same way the Nazis marched through Europe. But, then what happens?


Verse 5 “… a he-goat came from the west…”


This goat represents the United States and its allies. Why? Several reasons: He comes from the west “without touching the ground”. In other words, he flew and sailed to Europe, which we did. The U.S. and our chief ally, England, are also decidedly west of Berlin.


More interestingly, “the he-goat had a notable horn between his eyes.” What is this horn? A horn always represents some kind of power. This horn has no eyes, does not speak, or perform any action, unlike other horns in this book, which represent actual nations or rulers. The placement of the horn “between his eyes” is noted for a reason. And that reason is … reason.


The horn between the goat’s eyes is the power of Democracy and it is between his eyes because Democracy is the most-favored child of the Age of Reason. Our frontal lobes, between our eyes, are where we do our reasoning. I know this is what the horn represents by what happens next.


The goat defeats the ram, as we did Hitler, and then…


Verse 8 “The he-goat became exceeding great.” Let’s’ face it: the post-war years were a golden age of American prosperity and power. It is during this time we became “the greatest nation on Earth”. Continuing that verse:


“and when he (the goat) was grown, the great horn was broken….”


So, here we are. Our great horn of Democracy is about to be broken. Can anyone deny that it is already full of cracks? “Of the people, by the people, and for the people” is fast becoming an antiquated ideal.


“…and there came up four horns under it toward the four winds of heaven.”


So, our country, or possibly NATO, the alliance of democratic states, will be split into four divisions at some point.


Verse 9 “And out of one of them came forth a little horn…”


Reading farther reveals this little horn is the Antichrist.


But, what about the angel’s explanation afterward, naming the Medes and Persians? First, let’s find just who are the Medes and Persians.


Ancient maps indicate that the Medo-Persian Empire were the peoples that inhabited the land in what is now the Middle East and north Africa, specifically, the areas of Iraq and Iran to the east, and stretching as far west as Libya and Turkey, including all of Palestine and Egypt. Interestingly, The U.S.’s only ally in the region, Saudi Arabia, was not part of this empire.


Then how does the ram represent Hitler? It’s a known fact that, in these countries and areas of the world, all Moslem territories, the number one selling book after the Koran is … Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler, the handbook of Nazism. What does the angel say?


Verse 20 “The ram that thou sawest is the king of the Medes and Persians.”


He’s not the Medes and Persians themselves, he’s simply their king. And who is our king? The one we obey and follow, just as the militant Moslems now follow Hitler’s precepts.


Verse 21 “The he-goat is the king of the Greeks…”


How is the U.S. now the Greeks? Simple. How many politicians do you know that do not have a college degree? None, if any. What system is the university based on? The Greek System. We are the New Greeks.


Continuing v.21, “and the horn that was between his eyes is the first king.”


In America, we have had no kings. Our king is the ideal of Democracy. It was our first king, but it won’t be the last. Verse 22 tells us that it is when our democracy is broken up that “four kings (same as the four horns of verse 8) shall rise up of his nation, but not with his strength.” This makes sense. We can’t expect that a divided America or NATO will be as strong. Then what?


Verse 23 “And after their reign (a very brief one, I would guess) … there shall arise a king of a shameless face….”


So, we look to see who will rise from our ranks to conquer the world, for this “king of a shameless face” is the Antichrist.

Orrin Venn


Dear Orrin,
Thanks for sharing your perspective on the prophecies in Daniel 8.  While some of the concepts you propose do have a similarity with modern geopolitical events, I do see a few issues in Daniel 8 which ought to be considered.
In Daniel 8:4, it mentions the ram pushes in three directions but omits any mention of a push to the east. While ancient Medo-Persia didn’t push noticeably to the east, Hitler’s biggest land grab was to the east (into Russia). If the ram was Hitler, why would his greatest territorial grab be unmentioned in the prophecy? Another is that a “he goat” is not used as a symbol for the tribes of Israel anywhere in the Bible, to my knowledge. If a latter-day context was intended for the entire prophecy of Daniel 8 (i.e. including the USA. UK, etc.), one would think a symbolism more unique to Israel’s tribes would have been used. Finally, when the angel interprets the vision in verses 19-27, it gives no mention of any latter-day application  for the first part of the vision but it does state that the latter portion of the vision is intended for the “latter time of their kingdoms.” The fact that Alexander’s empire was literally broken into four parts shows a literal ancient fulfillment of the first part of the vision.
I see Daniel 8 as being similar in its time flow to the vision Daniel was given in Daniel 11. Daniel 11 has a long series of prophecies about many “kings of the north” and “kings of the south” which biblical scholars have noted were literally fulfilled in the wars and events between the Seleucids and Ptolemies. Then the time context leaps forward to the latter days in Daniel 11:40 without a clear commentary if some of the preceding verses leading up to verse 40 have applicability in ancient times, the latter days or both. Given the angel’s commentary in Daniel 8, I see the same thing occurring in Daniel 8 which occurred in Daniel 11. The prophecy describes ancient events and then leaps forward to the latter days. I do agree with you that Daniel 8:23 refers to the latter day beast/antichrist power.